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Talk:Iustus
Dude, I gotta break it to you. The Emperor wouldn't ally with Iustus. He just wouldn't. The Emperor saught to destroy Chaos, not work with it. Also, you grammer and puncuation needs some work. <.< [[User:Vivaporius|--'"Truth fears no questions..."']] 23:45, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Also there is no such thing as a good Chaos God. I know that seems odd given this guys aspects, but every Chaos God is a megalomaniacal force. As such they take whatever their aspect is too far. I imagine a guy like this might act in the name of good, but he would end up doing harm because he would take it too far. Supahbadmarine 23:47, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Yeah I was trying to refrain from mentioning that, but Supah's right. Their call the Ruinous Powers for a good reason. [[User:Vivaporius|--'"Truth fears no questions..."']] 23:51, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Yeah, Supah is right. A Chaos God of piousness would essentially be an arrogant and sociopathic force that deems all that are not it (or are at least in it's image) to be unworthy, and thus deserving of death. Such a creature would also rightly believe that this course of action was for the "good" of the Galaxy or something like that. Otherwise, it is rather NCF to have a Chaos God with the attributes you are suggesting. A Shadow Before the Dawn My Talk 23:53, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Going on that idea this is the type of God that would see no moral grey area. As a God of justice it would seek to punish all those that did any form of wrongdoing regardless of the severity of the crime, or the circumstances behind it. Furthermore as a God of piousness it would either try to convert those that were atheist, or wipe them out in the event that it failed. Supahbadmarine 23:58, February 17, 2012 (UTC) One of the things that people need to understand about Chaos Gods and Daemons is that they think in a manner that mortals cannot understand. Their minds follow a completely different form of rationality. One that is specific to each individual Chaos God. To a mortal it is maddness. Supahbadmarine 00:00, February 18, 2012 (UTC) And the Warp is madness defined. 'Nuff said. [[User:Vivaporius|--'"Truth fears no questions..."']] 00:02, February 18, 2012 (UTC) I haven't put it through spell check yet, so sorry for bad grammar. As for good chaos gods, he is not said to be a chaos god, and I have left him out of that category for that reason. The emotions warp is a pool for human and xeno emotions and actions, and Games Work Shop have stated in a white dwarf that their could be good gods in the Warp, but they were to small to be of any note in the 40K universe. It is on these grounds that I made this article. Trulyrandom 00:04, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Kinda makes sense to me. Supah and Cal, what say you? Oh, and Truely, do you have a source? I'd like to read more about that for a project I'm planning. [[User:Vivaporius|--'"Truth fears no questions..."']] 00:09, February 18, 2012 (UTC) I'll find it in the morning, or more likely midday, but I'll try and find it. Trulyrandom 00:12, February 18, 2012 (UTC) I just had a though. Under this theory, their could be a god of truth, which cannot happen as the Warp is the maifestation of a lie, which is a paradox, which cannot happen, but it can because it's chaos..................... AAAAAAAAAAARH!!! Trulyrandom 00:18, February 18, 2012 (UTC) The warp is a manifestation of a lie? What are you talking about? Supahbadmarine 00:22, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Truly, I know the source you are referring to (I don't have it to hand) but a God of this scale or power could not exist. I mean having Daemons? Really? The theoretical manifestations are of "Warp Angels" and warp beings made from positive emotions. A "good" God is theoretically possible, but as you (and the source) state: "they would have a small impact on the 40k Universe". You would really need to reconsider the scale of this beings power in order for it to have a canonical bearing. A Shadow Before the Dawn My Talk 00:29, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Thats what the big silver giantsaid before he shot me, but then that could be a maifestation of the warp that said he was fightind for the Emperor but wasn't and as lieing to me but then if chaos is the maifestation of a lie acording to Chaos then he could be lieing and that would mean that chaos isn't a lie and that Chaos is truth but then it wouldn't be able to lie an- AAAAAAAAAARH!!! Tzeentch I know it's one of your plots but this could be one of your plots and you wanted me to find out and............ Trulyrandom 00:32, February 18, 2012 (UTC) From what I was aware all the Gods had deamons, or in this case angles, when they grew to God like status, and they still wouldn't have a masive amount of power if they were a small God. Thus their presence in the warp would be small, but noticable, and would raise the hackles of the inqusition and the eclesearch thing. Trulyrandom 00:39, February 18, 2012 (UTC) No Truly, not all Gods have daemons. Case in point: Malice (Formerly known as Malal). He lacks any Canonical daemons. And he is of a greater power level than all other Minor Gods. A Shadow Before the Dawn My Talk 00:44, February 18, 2012 (UTC) I don't know who Malal is, so can you tell me or leave me a link? Sorry that was me. Trulyrandom 14:37, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Malal is the Chaos God of Anarchy. He basically feeds off of the other Chaos Gods' wars against each other, and is pretty much the most powerful Chaos God in existance. The Other gods want to destroy him, but fighting him only makes him stronger as he feeds off of internal conflict (Chaos against Chaos), and is the pure definition of the word. So he is also the God of Chaos too. Here's the link: Gods of Chaos. Games Workshop basically retconned him out of existence, and his more of a nusiance to the Ruinous Powers than anything else. That's GW for you. [[User:Vivaporius|--'"Truth fears no questions..."']] 15:12, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Has Games Work Shop ever said that all the Chaos Gods have deamons. The majour four have to have deamons to make sure they stay strong, Khorne's ones to make sure that Blood is spilt, Tzeentch to make sure that all his plots come true, Nurgle to spread all his deseses and Slaanesh to make sure that lots of diprived actions are happening. Malal doesen't need to have deamons ad he feeds off the other Gods. And according to Viva he isn't a minior God but the Biggest of them, but Cal says that he's a minior God, so who's right? Trulyrandom 17:08, February 18, 2012 (UTC) They are both right. In the early editions Malal was a major god. However after a dispute within GW the Malal in both FB and 40k was removed, and changed. In FB they replaced him in the role of the Renegade God with to other separate Chaos Gods. In 40k Malal became Malice, and was made a minor God. Supahbadmarine 17:25, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Thats where the open-mindedness comes in. He knows that people can't be completly just, as they are mere mortals, but asks for their best. Trulyrandom 21:19, February 18, 2012 (UTC) But you see that is the thing. There can't be a god of openmindedness. First of all what emotion gets you openmindedness in the first place? I'm sorry Truly, but you either got to make it so he's evil or he becomes NCF. There are simply no good Chaos Gods, even if the emotion that gave birth to them was positive. Hell, Tzeentch was given birth to by Hope for goodness sake. 21:36, February 18, 2012 (UTC) That was me. Supahbadmarine 21:37, February 18, 2012 (UTC) The sorce I refered to earler states that "It is a place where the supconscious exists". Therefore open-mindedness could be one of his aspects. Trulyrandom 21:46, February 18, 2012 (UTC) The point stands. There are no good Chaos Gods in 40k. It's impossible. Heck, if there were, 40k would be a much better place. [[User:Vivaporius|--'"Truth fears no questions..."']] 21:59, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Even if it were possible it just feels wrong. Supahbadmarine 22:22, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Exactly. [[User:Vivaporius|--'"Truth fears no questions..."']] 22:57, February 18, 2012 (UTC) The full sorce is as follows: "'It is the place our subconsions exsists: where our go to coalesce. So if Man and every other race didn't exsist - if the universe was empty - then the Realm of Chaos would be a grey, neutral void. It is the existence of life, more specifically intelligent life, that fills the Realm of Chaos with raw emotions. Of course, you have good and bad emotions but it's negative emotions that are generally stronger. I would argue that ander is a more powerful emotion than happiness, misery more defining than contentment. And so the negative emotions are dominant, they come to the forefront, not just because they're stronger emotional states but they naturally take precedence in a world and galaxy where war is so prevalent.'" As for Viva's point, I made him small in power so that he won't take away the 'grim darkness' part of the far future. As for Cal's point, demons are tiny fragments of their patrons' power, though it would be a far larger part from Instus in proportion to the other Gods. Therefore I think that I'm allowed demons for my God for this reason, but that can always be removed if it absolutely hast to. As for Supah's point, I can always make a character that personifies the pious and just parts, but over the top. Perhaps an army of some sort on top of that. What do you think of those points? Trulyrandom 23:00, February 18, 2012 (UTC) It still feels off kilter. Let me just point out that assuming this was a Minor God then it would likely be one that would wink out of existence quickly, which is the case with the majority of Chaos Gods. The galaxy has plenty of Piousness, but Justice, Righteousness and openmindedness are in incredibly short supply. Furthermore this god would have even more difficulty gaining followers than the other Chaos Gods. The Tau do their best not to associate with the Warp and believe too strongly in their Greater Good to have more than a handfull convert to something else, the Eldar hate Chaos passionately and would only align themselves with a Chaos God, good or evil, in the most dire circumstances. The Imperium is filled with superstition, and they are taught not to trust the beings of the Warp. Furthermore most Chaos followers join Chaos in order to break free from the restrictions in their life, and allow the desires that they have always been forced to supress to run loose. This kind of God would actually pose more restriction on the lives of its followers. You see some of the problem's? Supahbadmarine 23:10, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Just before this starts, I think this will be a matter of prospective. First of, I never said righteousness, so that's out the window. As for open-mindedness, their will be many imperial scholars, rogue traders and a few inquisitors that are open-minded it their approach. Plus their will be numerous Imperial citizens that don't fit in with the mold, and a number of these would be open-minded. The Eldar are open-minded, but arrogant so come across as narrow-minded and pig-headed, and again their will be ones who break the mold. I agree that their isn't much justice, but one person standing up for another is justice. Also Iustus would allow for more freedom, as you can't be open-minded and restrict someone. You can't be open-minded and say that a society where killing is acceptable is wrong. People would be drawn to him as he would personify their personal beliefs. He would also get a fairly stedy inome of power from the galaxy meaning that he wouldn't fade out quickly. Trulyrandom 23:40, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Truly, far baser and prevalent emotions still form gods that quickly go out of existence. Besides that the aspects of Piousness and Justice are most definitely restricting. You can't have justice without a moral code, and people would go against your moral code, but not necessarily be evil. On that note I was not saying that there were no openminded people in the galaxy, but they are in an extreme minority. Not near enough to form, and sustain a god. The Eldar are decidedly not open mined by the way. Mind you, I don't think you have to throw out the idea. However i think it needs reworking. Supahbadmarine 00:08, February 19, 2012 (UTC) You know, Truely could actually keep Iustus. He could have that a group of Arbites seeking to exact justice in a galaxy full of injustice (and displeased with their inability to stop the constant cycle of crime), convert to Iustus as a way of achieving that goal. As they go about their business, they offer those they arrest two choices: Life under Iustus, or death. This work perhaps went on for some time, giving Iustus a sizable following until the cult's discovery, forcing the Arbites to flee. They thus seek to deal justice where ever they go, and spread "true" justice as dictated by Iustus. As the Arbites are still human, and there is no information on their history with Chaos aside from the odd times they get cumbstopped by cultist uprisings, this would be a perfect way to keep Iustus the way he is without conflicting too much with canon. [[User:Vivaporius|--'"Truth fears no questions..."']] 00:41, February 19, 2012 (UTC) I'd need to think it over, but it could work. Trulyrandom 22:10, February 19, 2012 (UTC) If I could make a suggestion? If there is one thing you definitely need to change it's that he's too good. I can understand having a god that isn't necessarily evil, but heroes in 40k should always have a grey area to them. Otherwise it doesn't fit the style of 40k. Supahbadmarine 22:27, February 19, 2012 (UTC) I agree, their hast to be some sort of grey area, otherwise the charicter becomes shallow. I need to think about it then come back with the final product, though Viva's idea will probably be the basis. Trulyrandom 22:37, February 19, 2012 (UTC) What about a god that wants to save everybody, and show them the light whether they like it or not. Then again I suppose that wouldn't work due to the aspect of opnemindedness. Supahbadmarine 22:40, February 19, 2012 (UTC) I think I'll coppy Viva's idea, as it fits in with my orignal plan. Thanks Viva! Trulyrandom 21:52, February 21, 2012 (UTC) To get around his open-mindedness and the what is justice part, perhaps in his domain he could have a place, and in that place their could be books of every deed that was considered pious, and every law that has ever existed, and these are all pulled together into one book that is how his mortal followers should determine if something is just or pious. Could that work? Trulyrandom 22:14, February 21, 2012 (UTC) What if one law contradicts another, or one religious idea is sacreligous to another religion? Supahbadmarine 22:56, February 21, 2012 (UTC) They'ed cancel eachother out, or a comprmise would be found. Trulyrandom 23:05, February 21, 2012 (UTC) Ok guys, I need to know, AM I ALOWED DEMONS?! ;) Trulyrandom 23:49, February 26, 2012 (UTC) Give the guy a break. Your servant, Gobba42 00:02, February 28, 2012 (UTC) Ok, I have all the basic structuer, so heres the links Iustus Iusti Gradu Caput The Cult of Iustus Fraternitatis Primum Fraternitatis Exactores The Brides of Battle The basic idea is that after the nascent cult escapes, they ether stumble across the Arcem, a big space fortress, or Iustus Gives it to them. In no time at all there are disagreements between how The Law should be interpreted. The two heads to this discussion are Gradu Caput and Conversa Unum. This leads to Conversa leading his followers away in a strop, and thus the first Fraternitatis' are created. After a while, The Brides of Battle are formed, and take offense to a God that isn't one of the Dark Gods, and so try to destroy the Cult when they martial there forces. They fail, and become enemies to The Cult. What do you think? Trulyrandom 00:24, March 12, 2012 (UTC)